Narcissistic women are not always obvious. They can appear fragile, charming, insecure, and even selfless. So you have to look past their disguise. Here are 7 little-known traits of a covert female narcissist.
But before we delve into that, let’s first answer these questions.
- What is narcissism?
- The two main types of narcissism: what are they?
- What is the difference between a male and a female narcissist?
What Is Narcissism?
Narcissism (or narcissistic personality disorder — NPD) is a type of personality characterized by a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).
It’s a Cluster B disorder, which refers to disorders that are dramatic, emotionally manipulative, self-centered, and chaotic.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), to be diagnosed with NPD a person must exhibit five or more of the following symptoms:
- A grandiose sense of self-importance
- Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- A belief that one is special and can only be understood by other exceptional people
- A need for excessive admiration
- A sense of entitlement (to special treatment)
- Exploitation of others
- A lack of empathy
- Envy of others or the belief that one is the object of envy
- Arrogance.
Most people who exhibit narcissistic traits would not meet a clinical definition of a narcissistic personality disorder.
Still, a woman with narcissistic tendencies can be just as devious as someone with an NPD diagnosis.
Overt Vs. Covert Narcissism
There are two basic subtypes of narcissism: grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism.
The grandiose (overt) subtype is your “typical” narcissist who is bold, aggressive, and arrogant.
The vulnerable (covert) subtype is a less studied type of narcissism that presents with hypersensitivity, defensiveness, and even shyness.
It’s more difficult to identify because it hides behind self-deprecation and doesn’t fit the mainstream idea of what narcissism is.
While some women are grandiose narcissists, it is rare. The majority of female narcissists are the vulnerable (covert) type.
Male Vs. Female Narcissist
How are male narcissists different from females?
For starters, there are way more narcissistic men than women.
For that reason, when people talk about narcissism, they usually reference men. However, female narcissists do exist.
They may display the same behaviors and attitudes as their male counterparts, or they may present a more subtle, discreet, covert persona.
This is because every child goes through the socialization process that instills gender roles in them.
For example, girls are socialized to suppress their aggressive or dominating impulses, while boys are taught to hide their vulnerability and project hypermasculinity.
In our society, to be “feminine” is to be sweet and agreeable, and to be “masculine” is to be strong and brave.
For that reason, women typically don’t exhibit transparent, aggressive narcissism. They cloak it in vulnerability, selflessness, or victimhood.
But at the heart of it, there’s still a fervent need to project a certain image, gather sympathy and admiration, and use lies and manipulation to get what they want.
Research (see the References section) confirms that there are differences between narcissistic men and women, such as:
- Narcissistic men tend to be the grandiose type, whereas women are more likely to exhibit covert or vulnerable narcissism
- Female narcissists are more concerned with physical attractiveness than males, although both genders display vanity and exhibitionism
- Narcissistic men are more likely than women to have a sense of entitlement, exploit others for self-interest, and desire power
- Narcissistic women are more likely to use covert, relational aggression that causes psychological or social harm rather than direct aggression
What is a Covert Female Narcissist?
To put it simply, a covert female narcissist is a self-centered woman who uses indirect aggression to manipulate others for her own benefit and/or cause psychological harm.
She sees herself as a superior being and expects special treatment. But at the same time, she has an extremely fragile ego that needs constant bolstering.
What other signs are there to help you spot a female narcissist?
7 Covert Female Narcissist Traits
She is Toxic to Be Around
As a rule, narcissists are not a happy bunch.
Their wounded ego (“narcissistic injury”) constantly needs bolstering, so they are rarely satisfied.
And their negative attitudes about other people and life, in general, make them insufferable to be around. You know what they say: misery loves company.
When you’re dealing with a covert female narcissist, she may present a fake happy-go-lucky front and even refer to herself as a “positive” person who other people bring down with their “negativity.”
In reality, she’s the one who sucks others into the whirlpool of her toxicity.
If you’re sensitive to other people’s energies, you will soon feel drained, exhausted, and irritated. Your good mood will turn into a bad mood, all because you’re around her.
You may not even be able to put your finger on it — something will just feel “off” and you’ll have a strong urge to leave or end the conversation with her.
She Expects You to Be a Mind-Reader
A covert narcissistic female expects you to know or “guess” what she needs without her actually telling or asking you.
She feels that asking for something is beneath her. So how do you get something without asking for it? You manipulate people into thinking that it’s their job or responsibility to be attuned to her needs at all times and to meet them without fail.
Just like she can’t communicate her needs, she can’t communicate her emotions. Instead of telling people how she feels, she makes them feel what she feels.
So if she’s upset, she’ll make everyone around her upset and scrambling to make her feel better. This is called “emotional contagion,” and her family members are the first targets.
Although she doesn’t show any empathy, she expects people closest to her to be hypersensitive and empathetic to her slightest variations in mood. If they fail to do so, shame and guilt-tripping will follow.
That is why children of narcissistic parents often develop hyperawareness when it comes to “reading” other people and anticipating their needs.
They were taught that their needs and desires didn’t matter. So as adults, these children find it hard to set boundaries or prioritize themselves in a relationship.
They may also develop narcissistic features themselves due to the contagious nature of narcissism.
She Assumes the Worst of You
She is the kind of person who always has something critical to say about anyone she meets. But she will do so behind their backs, trying not to expose herself as a gossip.
As critical as she is of other people, it is nothing compared to how critical she is about the people who are closest to her.
For example, a narcissistic mother is most critical of her own children. The really pathological ones will even “compete” with their children, especially their daughters.
A covert narcissistic mother will methodically target the child’s self-esteem and sense of self so that they never become confident, independently-minded adults who can challenge her. This is systematic psychological destruction, and it happens far too often.
She Will Never Admit Her Wrongdoing
One of the most telling narcissistic traits is the inability or unwillingness to admit a mistake or some wrongdoing. That’s why a close relationship with a narcissist is always punctuated by frustration and suffering.
A covert female narcissist, like any true narcissist, will also deny that anything is her fault. But instead of going on the offensive, she will play the victim (or the martyr) and attempt to manipulate you into feeling guilty.
Let’s say you’re dating a female narcissist and you find out that she cheated on you. When you confront her, she will respond with indignation, flat-out denying the affair. If you have proof she can’t deny, she’ll jump into the victim role and turn the tables on you. For example, she might say:
What did you expect? You hardly pay any attention to me. It’s like you don’t even care. I’m not important enough for you. All you care about is (insert something you care about). I’m tired of feeling like I’m the last on your list.
Now you’re forced to defend yourself and convince her that you do love and care about her. Her infidelity becomes secondary to what you did to make her cheat on you.
Whatever she says, you’ll never hear her admitting that it was wrong or apologizing.
She is a Pathological Liar
To a narcissist, truth doesn’t mean what it means to other people. It’s not about being genuine or having an accurate concept of reality. Rather, it’s a relative construct meant to reinforce the narcissist’s ego.
A covert female narcissist will operate on a mixture of truths, half-truths, and outright lies fused together to fit her agenda. She will do it so skillfully and convincingly that you’ll be doubting yourself before you start doubting her.
And if you actually catch her in a lie, be prepared for an avalanche of gaslighting meant to completely disorient you and make you question your sanity.
She will even accuse you of being a liar – a tactic called “projection.” All of this is done to evade accountability and maintain control.
The scary thing is, she seems to believe her own lies, even in the face of facts that clearly contradict them. She even pulls other people into her web, and those people have no idea they’ve been duped by a narcissist.
She’s Preoccupied With Projecting a False Image
Which image a covert female narcissist chooses to project depends on her cultural values and desires.
If she is from a culture that values traditional female gender roles, she may want to project an image of a perfect wife and mother. She will “care” for her family but not out of concern for their needs. Rather, her care is the byproduct of her need to be perceived in a positive light by others.
Social media is a perfect tool for that. If you take a deep dive into your Instagram, you’ll probably find a few “mommy accounts” where an attractive scantily clad female is a prime focus, with her children and husband as the props for mommy’s ego.
Another role a covert female narcissist is likely to take on is the philanthropist. She might volunteer or take on a noble cause, performing multiple (and very public!) charitable acts. There is even a term for this: the communal narcissist.
This “do-gooder” gets ego boosts not from bragging about achievements or obsessing about her looks. She gets off on letting people know how giving and caring she is. For example, if on her way to work she gave $5 to a homeless man, she will make sure to tell everyone about it. But she’ll do it subtly, like:
I feel so bad for all the homeless people! Gave $5 to one this morning but I wish I could do more. What is the city doing about this?
The objective here is to carefully craft an image that’s completely the opposite of what she really is. After all, true charity is anonymous.
She is Emotionally Shallow
A covert narcissistic woman lacks emotional depth and warmth.
She is adept at imitating emotions but real emotions are not in her wheelhouse.
Of course, it doesn’t mean she can’t feel anything. If your narcissistic mother or girlfriend cries at a funeral, it doesn’t mean she’s suddenly cured.
There is a certain range of basic emotions narcissists are still capable of. But in private, intimate relationships they are usually cold, distanced, and superficial.
For example, if you’re married to a narcissistic woman, you may feel like you can’t talk to her openly or be yourself. There is something restricting about her. A normal process of “mirroring” each other’s emotions that couples engage in is distorted in narcissistic relationships.
You can mirror her; she can’t mirror you. So you feel that your relationship is one-sided, shallow, and emotionally unfulfilling.
The same can be said if you have a covert narcissistic mother or another female relative. You want to be close to her but you can’t because she isn’t interested in nurturing emotional bonds. She’s only interested in appearances.
As long as you maintain a perfect image of your relationship, she’s happy. But if you dare to tarnish that image, then you will see the true face of the narcissist — vindictive, cruel, and unforgiving.
References
Grijalva, E., Newman, D., Tay, L., Donnellan, M.B., Harms, P. D., Robins, R., & Yan, T. (2015). Gender differences in narcissism: A meta-analytic review. Psychological Bulletin, 141 (2): 261 DOI: 10.1037/a0038231
Hoertel, N., Peyre, H., Lavaud, P., Blanco, C., Guerin-Langlois, C., René, M., Schuster, J. P., Lemogne, C., Delorme, R., & Limosin, F. (2018). Examining sex differences in DSM-IV-TR narcissistic personality disorder symptom expression using Item Response Theory (IRT). Psychiatry Research, 260, 500–507. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psychres.2017.12.031
Kalemi, G., Michopoulos, I., Efstathiou, V., Konstantopoulou, F., Tsaklakidou, D., Gournellis, R., Douzenis, A. (2019). Narcissism but Not Criminality Is Associated With Aggression in Women: A Study Among Female Prisoners and Women Without a Criminal Record. Frontiers in Psychiatry, 10. https://www.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyt.2019.00021
Mitra, P., & Fluyau, D. (2020). Narcissistic Personality Disorder. [Updated 2020 Nov 19]. In: StatPearls [Internet]. Treasure Island (FL): StatPearls Publishing; 2020 Jan. Available from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556001/
Stinson, F.S., Dawson, D.A., Goldstein, R.B., Chou, S.P., Huang, B., & Smith S.M. (2008). Prevalence, correlates, disability, and comorbidity of DSM-IV narcissistic personality disorder: results from the wave 2 national epidemiologic survey on alcohol and related conditions. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 69(7), 1033–1045.
Streep, P. (2018). 6 Ways a Narcissist Can Hide in Plain Sight. Psychology Today.
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This is very interesting reading. I had no idea that this was a thing until a friend told me. I met a woman during covid and we instantly hit it off as “friends”. She never made a secret of her mental health situation and how poor her life situation was. I went out of my way to be a friend as Covid was a particularly difficult time and she had no friends locally (I know why now). Suddenly she was virtually everywhere in my life and I’m telling her every personal thing about me. Then she started the flirting with me and it turned physical. That ended after a while and we became best friends (her words). It was during this period that all the manipulation started after I became cut off from my other friends
– telling me if I ever went out with a particular woman, she’d end our friendship
– if I ever got a girlfriend, she’d end our friendship
– if I didn’t respond to her messages asking me why
– she led me on phsyically a few times and then just put the shutters up
– goaded me into sending spiteful messages to another woman (whom she claimed was a friend)
– a few times randomly stopped talking to me because of things that allegedly annoyed her but had zero to do with her (i.e. inviting my elderly neighbour over for Xmas drinks as her own children couldn’t see her so she was lonely)
– giving me with compliments, whilst loading them with something negative
– telling me all the perceived injustices that everyone else had inflicted on her
– making me spend all her spare time where she had no one to do things with – if I didn’t she got angry
She had a breakdown and started blaming it on me and I couldn’t work out why. Even though I knew it wasn’t true I was attacking myself for it thinking i should’ve been a better friend.
She ended our friendship via text when she saw I was friends with someone else. Since then we just became vitriolic to one another and she just told blatant lies – about us even being friends for example. Apparently I wasn’t even a close friend, just someone who wanted to shag her. I kept all communications as a reference point so I could prove she a liar if needs be. She now hides herself away which is probably for the best.
To all intents and purposes, on FB she presents herself as caring and empathetic etc and you’d think she’s normal but I have seen the nasty side.
I’ve been discussing it with a therapist as I’m still not fully over it and working how I couldn’t see her patterns of abuse. Sadly it turned out my mum did something similar so that type of behaviour is normal. All I’m left with is a massive hole in my life where she was. I never realised until after that I allowed her into every facet of my life. It’s left me with serious trust issues and it’s not pleasant.
This is the best commentary i’ve ever heard about toxic narcissists. I found something freeing in every paragraph. I’ll be reading it again, and again, and again. Thank you so much. I never realised how much i needed to hear this very very sad truth.
It’s going to be so hard to let her go but i know i will. I know i’ll be left wondering and trying to find ways to fix it .. but those are only going to be thoughts from now on. I realise now that i have to rehearse new patterns into my psyche. I have to learn more about myself and understand why i did this, knowing … wow, i’ve wasted 28 years of my life. WOW. I’m so grateful for this. I can’t thank you enough. I won’t let anger play a part. After reading this i’m on a new PRIVATE journey. THANK YOU.
My baby’s mom. Has the greatest *** you’ve ever. Real life. She literally. Sleeps with anybody. Even the UN. Worthy type Like people that you wouldn’t even think that should be attractive to. You come to find out. He does the same thing with them that she does with me. It kills me. You got a phone for our daughter. And it was linked to her phone. So I got all the messages on the phone. She sent to everybody. And received. I’ve known her for 10 years now. Excuse me 13 years. And. I kept my mouth shut. She’s been living in my house, never told her about it, but I monitor all her messages. And all she does is running around sleeping with people. Constantly. It’s a nightmare. Plus you started huffing air duster. Is you have Air Duster show mediately? Then she wants me to choke her hope. Nobody likes you. She hits on all my friends. Pretty much right in front of you too. It’s a nightmare.
God these women who abuse people the system for their own selfish needs should be locked up for all the damage they do
Ugh you feel so foolish and used when you realize it was all just like everything else with them, fake… she was the master could flip hysterical tears off and on like that… the things I know now are so upsetting and hard to understand it broke trying to understand. I’m still on recovery and honestly it’s cost me almost everything at this point. These women are insidious and malicious, no matter what your heart tells you they meant to you they did it all with the intent of hurting you this deeply one day and leaving you dramatically to make you their next horror story. You knew it from the start, it was only a matter of time, she lied every single day
I don’t know about you but I’m so tired of hurting, I’m ready to move on and let go completely. I’ve held onto the pain for too long, I’m working hard on me now trying new things to feel whole and not live like a broken ghost anymore. We will probably never know the whole truth about them, I doubt they even really know what’s real after awhile. They’re masters of rewriting history to fit their narrative’s … it has to be exhausted to try to keep all the lies straight, but we don’t need to worry about them or cater to their every need while being neglected and used. It’s time to let go and think about how I can do Better in the future and not allow myself to ever fall for a soulless manipulator again. I hope you can do this same hope things have gotten better since you wrote this. Take care 💚
You don’t get to heal, they made sure you get to live out your nightmares and spend the rest of your days paying for loving them, they are sick abusers with no shame or a shrewd of decency or empathy for the law , your well being l, or anyone who disagrees. You were used and so was I it’s hard to move on or even function now . I just hope things change
It’s mind blowing when you look back on all the lies you believed implicitly over the years. Their whole identity is lies, they need manipulation to play the victim while still having power and control over you the real victim. You’re better off not digging, you’ll make yourself sick trying to figure out what was real and what was part of their twisted games to extort or use you in whatever way they wanted. Just try to understand there’s no figuring it out, some people are just evil and will do whatever it takes to get what they want regardless of the pain and suffering they inflict, they’ll always be the victim in their own minds
I don’t care about your pathology or any of it, can you just look me in the eye once and talk like people? just once, after all this hurt? please?
I’m tired of hurting too maybe it’s time we cut it out
I have to say, recovering and understanding narcissistic abuse had been by far the greatest struggle of my life. Try to remember you’re not alone, it’s confusing, terrifying even when you see their true colors. There’s so much support out there for people who’ve gone through the same things, it can be hard to see sometimes but there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. You matter, they are the broken ones… they thrive on pain when you just wanted love
Things have gotten so much better!!! They will for you too keep trying!
Xoxo 😘 Katie Chicago xoxox
it’s great to hear 😊 things can get better after narc abuse
I try to remember over and over she’s a broken person who projects her pain… they recreate the abuse or neglect they feel they suffered with anyone who gets too close.. I’m so tired of psychology and healing and crying.. my face hurts all the time I always feel the way she wants me to feel scared and alone like she feels… I want to feel normal again.. I can’t even be there for people who need me anymore or work to take care of myself ptsd ruined me. Knowing it was all by design of this twisted person I believed in was enough then everything to follow… I was done for good and she still tried to take me to court for this victim story she needs to make it all ok but it’s not ok… real women who need to go no contact don’t breadcrumb and string you along for months.. she studied psychology but only to twist it to get her way not to really heal she just tells fanatsdy stories to her doctors it is sad but I couldn’t even talk to her about it .. so many things were off limits… I get now why .. they live double triple lives pretend for everyone mine mainly used me to build up her collection of pics of her! Every other gift was her pics of her everywhere her name all around the apartment her and I and our relationship j had all the promises she wrote in calligraphy framed!! And I still get called an abuser and cover narc in support groups from people probably like my ex who abuse the system and use support for abuse to enable and empower themselves. They need to escape whatever monster is in their head for all the shame they feel so they project it .. choose targets and plan it out on my exs case but she had endless money and all the time in the world, studied all these things and claims to be a champion of mental health but it’s all a twisted act… it’s like a psychological horror story it’s hard to describe the more I go into detail it’s like .. ugh I j hate how I sound and what it’s done to me that’s all
Impossible alone together I hate what my mind has become
They can still justify it all because of your response to their insane manipulation and betrayals. Your whole relationship might have been a lie but you’re still labeled the abuser they bring the police when you’re not even home, torture you for months before revealing it was all bread-crumbing lies. You were tortured and humiliated to your breaking point by this user so they can justify it all in their twisted minds. You were the scape goat for their emotional trauma, a stepping stone they could use for their growth all along. They leave at your most vulnerable to make it worse for you in hopes to get a worse reaction.. it’s hard to explain what that does to you as a person. They are professional victims, you were chosen to be their new horror story from before they ever attached themselves to you only to break every promise as sadistically and painfully as they could to play the poor abused victim… sick users I don’t know how they live with themselves
this is what my ex of 23 years has done to me and im facing prison time for all of her allegations towards me. she wont stop. Iam backed into a corner and love my children so much idk what to do. next week I have criminal court and have some things but idk if I have enough to prove she is doing this.
This is spot on… I was kicked out of a few extremely biased and misleading groups like that before I stopped looking at them all together. I have to say though there were plenty of women who also helped me a great deal. It seems like no matter the type of narcissistic their tactics are all the same, some are just insidious and covert others are grand and obvious. But hearing my story almost word for word from women recovering from the same type of abuse helped tremendously. There’s still no real healing from it for me, but I’m learning to be grateful that I have the chance to go on and keep trying to learn to live with it. Worrying about them turns into all the ways you want to learn to be better for allowing yourself to love a person like that. We all deserve better, no one asked for this we just wanted love and a selfish broken person attached themselves to us, trying to steal our strength while Tearing us down for some sick need of theirs to pass on some inner pain they are too cowardly to face and must project onto others at all costs
I’ve seen it all in those groups. People like my ex even just high schoolers getting encouragement and these rules to follow when you label your partner an abuser or Narcissistic and want to leave without ever talking or trying. I mean I remember one story where a girl was really asking if she needs a restraining order from her 16 year old boyfriend for “abusing her” by not posting enough on social media about her.. and I swear grown women claiming to be in mental healthcare were indoctrinating them into this fake psychology nonsense they turned the issue of emotional abuse from a partner with a severe personality disorder into. Now it’s being used by mainly covert narcissistics and awful people who abuse the law, don’t communicate or do anything and say it’s empowering to lie abuse and manipulate, as long as you labeled them mentally I’ll and your abuser first they can’t touch you ladies!!! Thats the message, and how fiercely the champions of this dangerous pseudo psychology will defend it can only be described as a cult like following.
Stop enabling more abuse and covert narcs to abuse, the you tube doctors and even life coach type non clinical counsels are shoveling this because it sells! It hurts everyone even the people who ghost and use the silent treatment to and justify it as escaping, when they were never abused or in any danger!! People took rules and tactics meant for real dangerous and abusive relationships and it’s not healthy for them or anyone. You try to communicate open and honestly… you don’t leave string people on while you tourture them until you break them down enough to say their crazy to justify your leaving in the first place!!!! But you can’t even tell people who are being taken advantage of they’re being manipulated, those ones don’t care anyway ass long as someone agrees they can feed them lies say whatever and feel justified for their fake victim hood, legal l, emotional manipulation and all the damage they do to they victims… because they’re the only real victim, your feelings got in the way of their fake victim story so you better be careful or they’ll claim you beat them next .. mine abused me, even sexually the night before she left if our roles were reversed I’d be in a shelter after that instead of ruining my mind and health day after day waiting for this lying user to be the person I knew and loved again but no,,, they are professional victims and now it’s easier than ever.. just point a finger and especially if they have a record you can dangle them and keep that abuse thread going for years with the law supporting you while they are punished for nothing!!! The laws in the USA at least are completely 1 sided. Even rich mentally I’ll suburban girls who never worked a day in their life, used their partner lied for years… if they have money or just want to ruin your life for their sick power and control they are encouraged!! Why not who wins, more therapists, their jr female Facebook lawyer squad.. they think it’s a joke too.. arguing someone’s social media drama and everyone pays thousands and the abusers or money wins in the end.. it has to change
Love it! I thought she was an Angel, the most genuine loving person I’d ever met. Fuck you Katie you fake ass wanna be victim. I coddled you for years, adjusted to your mental health issues and you flip it all around!?! You ghost and never talk or look at me again after Covid, spending what 2 years literally together all the time.. all your fake hand written promises and lies.. you never wanted a real partner or planned to follow through on all the over the top sentimental gifts and lies. If our roles were reversed what you did to me would be considered criminal. I feel sick thinking about you labeling me yours abuser and everything that followed when you knew I saw you for who you really are and decided to spring your trap. At the hardest time of my life, when you knew you could do the most damage and say I saw crazy and play your pathetic victim games. I doubt any of it was true now, it’s all You KT!! You lie to eveyone and turned me into the same thing you said about both your parents, your sister, best friends. I loved you dearly, I had those promised framed remember?? Try meant everything to me… but it was all just words to you to use for power and control. I’ve studied, spent too many hours trying to figure out wtf even happened.. I was having panic attacks falling over wondering if you snapped while u we’re giving me the silent treatment and going through all the motions as if your life was in danger.. it’s the most twisted and damaging thing a person has done to me romantically or otherwise. Do you honestly believe any of it now?? It’s pointless to ask when I was always temporary like your practice husband to use and Dino your issues off on.. but from you of all people.. you thanked me for all the strength I gave you, spent years promising we’d always work through anything.. I was the best person, thing to ever happen to you… then you ghost me and act like I’m out to get you???? Never talk to me again? Years and all that time together.. and all the things you did to set it up to look like you were some poor victim when you’re a sadistic mentally abuser.. I want my life back! You stole a part of me you can never understand or be able to able earn yourself and it’s not fair. We spent so long adjusting to suit all your many special needs, you get into my head with all your psyobable then use it to abandon and torture my inner child who you wanted me to get contact with like you did with your little girls? And you’ll never see how sick and manipulative you are, everything you accuse your “abusers” to be, even Your sister all those stories, it was you!! You can’t accept it!! You lie to a few friends for validation to justify you’re insanely cruel emotional abuse. You say it’s your Mom and Dad and everyone else but it’s you!! Anyone who sees too much or you get too close to you turn to to the nest horror story, you’re the monster Katie! You cost me my life, career, sanity.. die what?!? Believing the anorexic cute but weird neighbor girl was my soulmate, fate, you set up our meeting!! You attached yourself to me to try to pawn off the pain you pretend to deal with but never do. I head you lie over and over and over to your therapist and family and friends, you tested me! Tried to train me and never cared! It was all just crazy photo memories you could make to feel like you’re growing, but you’re just passing on your hurt to fill some twisted sense of power and control you crave. You lied from day one and every day we spent together, with every promise and every I love you and I don’t deserve it, no one does.. I don’t know how you live with yourself, I get why you can’t sleep and live in terror of people finding out silly true things about you.. it’s all fake and self serving bs, you don’t have feelings or empathy like most people, so you go so extra overboard to look like the poor brave victim doing everything she can! Well even your bfs, parents, courts, know you’re full of Sh!t this time with your pathetic victim stories. You’re too old and you went so far out of your way it would be laughable, if it didn’t wreck me and everything I ever worked for. Im glad you got to have your adventure and use my life like toilet paper.. while you got to chill and not work, I never saw you really work fyi, so I’m super curious why the hours and hours with it guy and coming home sticky with grease and getting in the showe immediately every time!! Did you ever even really go into work or to Pica? How could you be so black and white, why is your life and mental health worth so much and I’m so worthless? I hope you feel all that powe and control your abusive upbringing stole from you now, I wish you could see how you did to me everything you claimed to be traumatized by. It worked fyi, I had to be hospitalized twice and can’t work and developed an eating disorder, transference complete!! Go you big winner!! Yay for all the attention you get from those of just for me gift photos, ever gift was pics of you huh. I don’t even wish you harm or bad karma or any of that, what does it matter.. I just hope you can change so other people don’t have to suffer for loving you while you manipulate and turn them into your next scape goat, you twisted, deceitful, lying, over-privileged, self entitled, bratty little girl. If you really believe in any of the spiritual stuff you use to pretend to practice I don’t need to tell you. Just be Better and stop passing on your trauma and running from it. You make yourself crazy worrying about fiends of 20 years not liking you anymore for saying something uncool.. you act just like your mom in public, weird and fake, you’re boarder line and it terrifies you so here we are.. thanks! Love of my life, fated soul mate. The years of promises to the deepest parts of me and future faking really did the trick. I wish I could hate you, I do hate you, but only the mentally I’ll parts you poison yourself and your relationships to run from. I thought I was the expectation but I was the most disposable of all, now it’s all me! Your excuse and reason to not live, how could you say all those things in so many ways for so long and do all this? You think it’s a game? Real abuse victims do what you did!!! You stole from poor and abused women to pretend!! You are rich, have wayyy more friends and family very close, you did so many things to set it up.. and it’s so far from the person I knew and loved you broke my mind! I was having panic attacks while you weee stringing me along accusing me of your crazy projections. Everyday for 2 years!! You promised those things specifically and in the end you tried to dump everything!! Your long term issues even saying they were mine and I was weak all along, you used to send cards make posts tell me in person how I was the dearest and most real life but I was just like your practice toy you could throw away and blame.. you know exactly what you did too, how you’d hurt me so deeply and take back everything good and snap mu mind when I actually needed you to support me for a change you used the opportunity to hurt me as deeply as possible. Your issues were to sacred to ever question, and the sick deep things you true to attack and project… you don’t care about mental health issues, or feminism, or anyone really.. you think fake heartfelt gifts make up for a lack of emotion.. for years of manipulating and lies?? I hope you change and see the real harm you do to people who see who you really are. That didn’t mean I wish you well or think you deserve it, but unlike you I can’t treat people without basic human decency and still blame them for it. You’re a shameless coward who needs to lie to herself and others so they can parrot back and reinforce you. You know it’s all true!! You studied psychology to heal but you ended up using it as a weapon. I want my life back, I want to feel normal before narcissistic abuse and the pain and confusion of everything you did broke me. You are a cruel fake victim Katie, you always said you were on the spectrum, baby you are on a far side .. I hate your actions and the betrayal I feel everyday when I wake up and cry in the shower and yell at myself in disbelief for still having tears. I was set money wise, content and thriving.. you knew everything you used to justofu ghosting me and the silent treatment since before we ever dated! Has enough time passed for you to see maybe it was Covid stress or you’re not as well as you think? You left for what your fiends might think?? After 2 months of emails, we lived together!!! You promised things no one ever has and systematically broke them to leave me guilt free.. I want to scream or cry all the time, so I do.. I cry all the time my face hurts, my soul hurts, I wish I could erase you from my mind… even those memories I wanted to cherish forever, they were just more of your twisted control tactics.. I feel so used and hurt all the time like I can’t breathe when I think about it all.. you sick monkey
It’s time to let it go and move on with your life you’re only hurting yourself now and her and no one deserves to hurt even abusers. Just let it go please
the scary thing is is that for the most part they always come back maybe not now or this year or maybe not next year but she will come back and if you let her she’ll do it to you all over again and you want to stop hurting so bad that you just might let her please don’t let her when she comes back as much as you want to don’t get upset or excited just be blah and say no thanks I moved on. good luck. and she will lose it and she will cry and she will get angry and she’ll get mean and she’ll make threats just ignore it you need to be in a better place for whenever she does try to Hoover you back up because believe me she will you were too good of a supply someday she’ll need it and she’ll come to you looking for it and you have to be ready focus on being ready or having a new girl in your life so she doesn’t even let her anywhere near you. by the way mine’s name was Sarah Jessica Nunez covert narcissist who in some sick way I still love but I know I have to love from a distance or she will destroy me. just be glad you didn’t marry her just be glad you didn’t have kids with her it could be worse.
They’re mentally Ill users. They try to recreate their own abuse or neglect by using people, attaching themselves and pretending to love you. Appeal to you and try to open you up in the deepest personal ways only to use them against you and hurt you as much as possible when they found a new supply or when you’ve seen to much. This kind of emotional manipulation is so damaging and they plan it all out, they always have double lives and secret friends, just assume all your suspicions are true.. I went digging and it was so much worse than I ever imagined. This person gave me the most heat-felt gifts, promised all the things I ever wanted from a partner, then did everything she swore never to do.. I mean it’s absurd in writing even in so many cards and gifts, you feel so Chested and used it broke me as a person, I still think about it everyday no matter how much I try not to, I’m worried I’ll never feel normal or safe or good about anything again. I don’t want to date but I’m so lonely, maybe it would help? I don’t want to carry over this pain into a new relationship but it’s like no matter how much time passes or what I learn about emotional abuse and why it’s so
Damaging it doesn’t matter. When I start thinking about it I can’t breathe I feel like I’m back to day 1 laying on the floor in panic coming home to a note. Then everything that followed was so cruel and manipulative I don’t think I can come back from it, I feel impaired ny panic and anxiety, crippled by depression, all for loving a person I thought was broken and healing, she was just using me.. lying for years every single day with every promise and I love you.. I hate this feeling but now it’s getting hard to remember what I felt like before narcissistic abuse .
Yep.. it’s not all women they say men abuse the system in their groups, but the law in America anyway is grossly biased towards women. There needs to be more harsh penalties for the misuse of the abuser label and using orders of protection to breakup, it’s become such a ridiculous witch hunt find real support online is even a challenge. There are thousands of breakup doctors supporting this trend, they mess up 2 lives can sign these brave fake victims up for groups and classes.. the courts love it too yay another Facebook abuse case, oh no it’s a real one and the poor women was getting beat up for years and fled …. Lied to forced to stay inside and be a slave and degraded and he is stalking her going into her work everyday parking outside… that’s what it’s for!!!! Not when you want to break up without hearing how you lied and broke every promise.. but I get it, you could be a hero and get all that victim attention you crave m, all you have to do is leave when they’re not home and say you’re escaping and suddenly you’re a hero… you can say anything then, haha see if you can get him thrown in jail and really sell it, yay equality!! Yay women who abuse feminism to train a generation of victimized narcissistics who love to ruin people to feel power and control.. it’s all nonsense and the courts should be against it not embracing being everyone’s break up mediator.. grrr hate this
It’ can be traumatic when you’ve been used and deceived by a narcissistic. For me it’s like I can never catch my breath, I always feel diminished as a person from the cruel way I was psychologically and emotionally manipulated by this fraud of a person I thought was my soul mate. They lie from the start, build you up with hope only so it breaks you even more when they reveal everything you ever loved about them was a lie.
I wish I could say time heals all but sometimes the wound are too deep. They add to the lairs of painful scar tissue that keep us from ever feeling or trying or feeling anything but less than we were before being maimed. I miss feeling anything but this, nothing has ever hurt my life as badly, I can’t work or function, I always feel like I’m choking back tears, I can barely look people in the eye or talk with any confidence. It hurts so much more knowing I helped the one that did it to me grow in all the ways I feel diminished and betrayed, and they did it on purpose!! In all the twisted ways they knew would leave me this way, it’s by far the cruelest most fed up thing that’s ever happens to me, and they still play the victim!! Years of lies then ghosting, silent treatment, bread-crumbing, at the hardest time already mentally, while making all my worst nightmares come true! They set you up and manipulate your worst fears, it’s like a bad dream you can’t wake up from because you never knew a real person, you lived with a lie and were used for their sick needs to have power and control over another life, they live to hurt as deeply as they feel hurt inside.. you were chosen to be their scape goat for emotional pain from the start.. if you find a way to live happily again please let me know, I’d give anything to not feel like disposable trash…
They can lie to you everyday, set you up manipulate you use all their promises and your worst fears against you, leave you hanging in desperation while they continue to lie and use your pain to justify it all. They’ll never admit any of what they did was wrong or abusive.. I slept with the promised she wrote on my dresser everyday. This person claimed to be all about mental health, healing, but she only uses it as a weapon to hurt people in the ways she felt hurt for some sick sense of power. No one has ever been as cold and cruel to me, it’s left me so broken I can barely take care of myself, I used to be so independent. I hate this, I wish I could go back and warn myself not to ignore all the red flags, if you would have told me a week before she left and the nightmare started I never would have imagined. She abused the law, women’s groups, she abused the law and strung me along while pretending to be in hiding I never even raised my voice to her. I’ve never felt so deeply used, I’ll never understand how people like this can exist and live with themselves. You built our whole relationship on lies and promises you kept making even after you left? Why would you do that, how could you be that way after years of reinforcing how you never would or could. It’s such a slap in the face when everything way about us working together and adapting to your issues. But mine become your ammo when you want to leave after living together for years and the piles of notes and cards and decorations we had every where saying we’d work through anything we were the only home and family we needed and blah blah,. I believed you.. you sick coward, you ruined my mental health, you turned me into you when we met and it’s so wrong and fed up I can barely think straight still! After all this time it still
Hurts to the point of panic attacks if I think about it too long. Do
You have any idea what that did to me!? Day after day waiting for any Hope like your letters said, like the person I loved and knew was real.. it broke me, I got stuck.. I still feel stuck in the floor I never got over the shock of coming home to a note and the torture you inflicted while u labeled me your abuser and cost me everything I’ve worked for for my self for my future. Why? Why is my life and struggle and pain mean nothing?? Because I had a record you think that gives you the right to use me to my core for your growth?? Because you had an easy out at Any time.. I think about all the stupid things I believed about you!! Your know exactly what you did, you can lie to everyone and yourself forever, you used me as your practice and ghosting me, word for word how you said you’d never abandon or make me face anything alone.. I thought we were fated, like all your gifts and lies 😓 I want want anything anymore but for the pain you left to go away and to feel normal again. I can barely leave the house anymore you broke my mind my heart my soul, stole my peace of mind and faith in people.. for what .. your adventures, your attention, I cheered you in for your growth!! And even that was all fake!! You were never honest and it’s disgusting to look back at your pics and lovey dovey crap our silly kids I’m sure you got a good laugh! How brave and genuine you are you use people as your emotional punching bags and make monsters out of the people you hurt the most because that’s all you can do, manipulate and use people, cheat and lie and say anything for attention.. I loved the sweet caring genuine person I knew, I needed an ounce of that to be real, I never imagined how low or how much damage you would do.. even when you were having me fill out worksheets breadcrumbing me while u planned your flings I never believed you weren’t coming home.. Home you stitched that while u plotted your sick mental torture. I wish I did know how to deal with it, I don’t want to be doing this anymore,, I can vent forever and never feel any better, I don’t really want you to hurt either. You’ll never be admit how twisted it all was or care , you got what you needed out of me. You must have been the only gal there who was getting tucked in with stuffed animals and writing love letters before she fled.. pathetic, real women need those programs not over privileged rich girls who pretend, you shame real women and abuse victims everywhere. You make a mockery of mental health, you cherry pick your therapists and lie to them until you find ones that give you the diagnosis you want. You’re afraid of becoming your childhood abusers if any of that was real, you’re always worse and more mentally ill at a younger age, Stacy is a wack job who sends you to crystal camp and either knows you’re a fraud and doesn’t care or is that twisted herself. I’ve said this all so many times in ever way. I don’t want to to keep doing this, I was done.. i didn’t answer your last degrading bait e-mail daring me to give you your big victim card… and you still had to try.. you’re just an evil human leach… I wish I could remember the you I loved but you forced me to love and live a lie. I stopped living, i don’t know how I used to live with depression or got as far as I did when it’s so crippling now it feels like it’s anything before was just a little case of the blues. I cried for the first year every single day not just here and there.. in fits that could be hours.. my face still aches. I never had anxiety or panic attacks ,Ike I said your betrayals in all the ways step by step how you knew would hurt me the most worked,, you broke me. You’re not a victim, you’re the reason rea victims can’t find the help they need or deserve because all you care about is getting away with it, having your little group of enablers you lied to reinforce that you’re right and so brave for your traumatic emotional abuse.. you’re everything you told me your family did to you, so much of that was probably just you.. you had plenty of time to scope me out neighbor.. I will try harder to be done but honestly it’s not about hurting you, it never really has been, I don’t know how to heal and I love in shock because you gave me ptsd.. seizure like panic attack, can’t get out of the car for hours until I have to call for help anxiety. I’m so ashamed of how I am now but I don’t feel anything good anymore. I need to be better for me though. You don’t even have real emotions or love or cares you’re just a big lie, your whole personality is as fake and contrived as your mother, you’ll be worse at her age.. I don’t even want that, I don’t think adding more hate or hurt into the world is helping.. but you’ll always be a hateful fraud and hurt the people who get too close and see the real the you. You’ll say anything do anything to have people believe you’re everything they ever wanted from a partner just to use it all, always thinking about your exit and how everyone’s out to get you, without.any intention of sticking to a single world. Why.. how do u live so falsely, why would you want to?? I’m Not sorry to you for carrying on, there is no real you. I’m sorry for your mental illness and that you chose me as your target, I didn’t deserve to be turned into a shaky waif, I used to praise me for all the ways I helped you grow and you set me back, not even back worse than I ever though possible.. and you planned it all! Grr
What is most annoying after 40 some years of hell, my X ends up with literally everything through false allegations, especially my half of our inheritance and all the court documents portray HER as the victim when she should have been incarcerated. I never realized what monsters Covert Narcs are and they should all be incarcerated at the first false charge.
I have been researching for months trying to figure out what is wrong with my sister. She was born with a horrible temperment and disposition that destroyed our whole family. At the age of 12 she became an alcoholic which turned her into an even bigger monster. She is full of hate and rage for everyone. She abuses anyone who is around her. She is now in her 50’s and worse than she has ever been. She is now abusing the only person she claims to love, our mother. They live together and my mom’s life is a living hell, and has been for 55 years but my mother protects her, defends her and sides with her against anyone who can’t handle the abuse. My sister fits in the covert narcissist catagory but also many other disorders. I question where the evilness comes from? She gets such a tickle when she recalls abusing someone so badly that that person admitted themselves into a mental hospital. Is that a narcissistic trait? Any ideas from anyone would be very welcomed. I’m at a loss about what to do to help my mother who is in her 80’s. My sister’s evilness has gotten to a point where I think she needs hospitalized. I don’t know what to do!
It was a lot of the same for me. She claimed her mother was boarder line, and that her father, sister, ex friends were narcissistic abusers trying to control her, stalk her etc… I know it’s a giant red flag but I didn’t know anything about it back then. I saw someone brave trying to overcome her past and who seemed like my other half finally, when I was giving up on it.. but it is all live bombing, fake superficial emotions and beliefs. They are professional victims and that’s how they lure people in and get inside so they expose their weekensses and feed off their strengths until they are tired of living lies or want another or multiple new sources now that they used you to grow like a practice husband, a stepping stone for their fake experiences they said were the best if their life… before leaving you an insane abuser they must escape. It’s repulsive but they have no real empathy, they want what they want and the people in their lives to support and believe them and nothing else matters. They will lie use you for years set you up for their legal battles, torture you in the ways they promised to always nurture so they can say you’re crazy for reacting to what their doing. Mine let me dangle for over 2 months saying all the light things.’ Promises she always did till the truth came out.. it was all her plan and she let me be hospitalized, lose my career and sanity waiting for her day in and out in shock.. I never imagined I’d never see her, never I imagined everything she had done behind my back to setup her victim story. She brought the police to our home she ordered me to leave after finally showing her true colors and her plan… she never intended Tok come home.. the real truth hurts too much to say. Everything she did does.. she tapped into all the hurt parts of me she claimed she was traumatized as a kid .. and is he was a champion of mental health issues!! She used them to try to train me and dump her trauma off on by abusing me the way she was or claimed to be.. who knows anymore. All I want to is try again.. I’m so depressed I think about checking back in for my panic attacks I now developed and cropping anxiety.. I can’t work or take care of myself.. and she told me I gave her the strength.. used tjj on praise me for being the best thing ever in her life.. she didn’t just abuse to law and my past to control me.. she abused my inner child and made all his nightmares come true… it’s the most damaging and insanely cruel series of things a person has ever done that me. It’s ruined me in ways I can only now really understand in therapy.. all I do anymore is therapy and hope and try to fight off depression ans crippling panic… she accused me of even her life long mental illnesses and you know it worked.. now I have panic attacks so bad I fall down I never had one before her, depression I never thought would be possible again, it’s taken everything from me at what was already the most stressful scary time of my life.. for a lot of people.. my mother was half dead, my job was making me crazy we were locked in for 2 years and I loved that she claimed she did too haha but still it was scary and the news was insane.. then she got faxed and left.. like that.. saying I would be her abuser with a note .. then event through all the motions like I was a serial killer out to get her.. it broke me, I was catatonic literally then the panic and serizors came.. I lost 60 pounds total in about 2 months I weighed less than 130 from around 200. She had an earring disorder panic attacks or so she claimed I never saw them.
Then when you start getting help and find out you were manipulated in such deep emotional ways.. maliciously, while they lied and mislead you while most likely cheating or setting up their new supply. When you think about all those little things over the relationship that seemed off, and realize wha tit means.. it can drive you crazy. But nothing has ever been more mentally damaging to me then her cruel discard.. for a person to sink so low, use things against me and manipulate my unwavering belief in her is so twisted. What it does to your mind, cognitive dissonance, ruminating, waiting and waiting for the person who would cry after a day of missing to even speak to you for weeks, then months?? You have to know somewhere inside what it really is… they have to know what they’re doing and plan it. Even weird foreshadowing things.. they want you to suffer to feel their trauma or what’vermessed them up for them because they refuse to deal with it . Eveyone is their next horror story, they’re the perfect kind we’ll meaning people they pretend to be to everyone. Their enablers know but most of them are just as sick or worse. Their cherry picked shrinks and alllll Those guys that suddenly pop up you never heard of.. hah even ones apparently she knew for years and had funny stories with.. it makes my physically sick one. Daily basis still!!! It’s been over a year ! The way she treated me so coldly, ordered me around while abusing me and then even after I was done still trying to punish me and turn it into a legal battle for her sick victim story!! Why!?$? Why would you do that .. you did ruin me j spent everyday every single day crying outside work desperate.. I should have been institutionalized then, you were saying I was after you !!! You wouldn’t even talk to me and I wasn’t even able to get out of bed at that point. I cried driving, eating sleeping waking up showering everyday for over a year.. my face aches still all the time and I still do cry most days but I can control it now finally.. I faintly don’t feel as mixed up and confused by you breaking the reality I knew and the image of the life I thought I had that was just your lies, your snotty future promises and assurances you would never do exactly what you did and shit me out and never look at me and labele me and you did that my worst possible fear and it did break me and you knew it would and you used that!! It’s so sick 🤕 it’s so kind bending and hard because I believed in you ore than anyone on this planet to never hurt anyone especially me in those ways.. u were sticky. Home is wherever I’m with j literally weeks before!! You wanted me to quit my job and just depend on u basically while I plotted to leave me and label me your abuser. It’s not a game or the internet, you ruined my reputation my career even though you didn’t get it, you ruined my life and you couldn’t even glance at me once, I don’t blame you how do you even look at yourself in the mirror. Everything you claimed to be was false, everything you claimed to be the victim of you are an abuser of. You don’t believe in mental health or even feminism or any of the things you pretend to care about it’s all an act so you can be the dimpled poor victim gal eveyone loves, cover someone else’s home and life with picture of you and promises to the little girls you can’t heal.. I packed for u and you bring the police here?? You just couldn’t face me and didn’t want your friends and family or whoever else to see I was broken and not your abuse of years out to get you.. I cut your food for you like a fool, I served you, I tucked you in every single night, held your hand every single car ride, believed every single promise and you made them over and over and then even the ones in writing you take back in your final email twisting our past and reality to fit your story.. claiming still to be out for my best interest.. you’re a sick person, people who have read those told me you may have wanted me to off myself , or take me to court as long as you got your visiting story.. you used me and played me for years while I adjusted so much for your mental health issues then you leave saying you can’t carry both of our!?!! You had your mom parroting it back to me when we talked verbatim .. your trauma buddies you use for validation, like your therapy you cherry pick and lie to anyway.. or don’t even go to while you meet your pals. Like all those times you came home and ran to the shower after “working “ god even some of the old pics I never bothered to look at you weee just lying about so many things how do you keep up? I feel so stupid and used for loving you and aching for my other half I thought I missed my entire life until we got together. I normally only cry over the hurt and over who I am now and how I live, how I don’t know how to do it anymore like I could before you. You stole something I earned, from a lifetime of facing my real and diagnosed depression then dunk your panic anxiety and even eating on me.. no one who cared would carry on with all those hurtful damning things you said.. no one in their right mind leaves for 6 weeks and swears up and down they love you and no matter what we’ll get through this. All the promises before they never let me face anything alone abandoned accuse all these things!!! It’s so twisted I keep saying it even here and for this one because it does still shock me and take my breathe away literally when I think about it too much. I feel violated in every way a person can be and she is still trying to punish me.. she acted like a bartered woman and took advantage of my past, of womens groups, the law, twisted psychology and all my deepest fears to torture me for weeks and then keep dropping the floor out from under me everytime she gave me a little hope. I’m very hopeful my new treatment will make life feel safe and worth trying for again.. I feel raped and beaten and I was in all the ways that matter, sexually abused also by this girl who’ literally has thousands of selfies of her to share and lure people in I think that’s half the reason she gave me gifts now pics of her sexy that’s what she used and wants.. attention in anyway or form she’ll lie about anything and be anyone if it’s better people better friend she’ll betray anyone or anything to get her way. I was the perfect target, I do have a record and she dangles it still. She committed severe emotional abuse to manipulate me to validate it all and used all of that.. I ticked you in with stuffed animals, we spent every single day together why didn’t you talk talk, do any of the things you said you’d always do.. because it was all lies!! No one who cared about my life or even general well being would wait 2 days to say things to My family about how I’ve been worried for months, you would have done it when you weee worried not after I was catatonic in the floor in shock by your note saying you’re in danger when I never raised my voice to you or a hand and ever could have.. if I meant so much as you kept promising deeply even after you left why??? Why how could you just leave that way after all of it, years of lies and promises in psychology terms and love and support against all the things you did… I’ve said it all over and over and I’m done for the rest of time.. you win ok 👍 big winner .. I don’t wish you bad karma or for you to suffer now or ever… adding more hurt to world doesn’t make me feel better. I hope you can be a whole person some day and you do understand the things you did and how unfair and damaging they’ve been. You said I was your strength Then that I was your burden, talked to me like I was mental gimp freak while you accused me of stalking you.. I was barely functioning and U know I’m crying again now thinking about how truly cruel you if all the people I’ve ever known could be. I thought it was fate, all your love bombing fake things you say to appeal to someone.. I could never say a word no matter how carefully phrased about your past or mental health or trauma .. or was off limits even after h left I was trained that way… but you’d use the only and most important only things I said from the start my issues my hurts we held and swore to each other before we moved in we’d never hurt.. you lied.. I just want to heal please.. I can’t cry and pretend anymore I can’t live like this and if my new tremants don’t start helping I won’t . I got choked up when they put my grandma ext to grandpa in the wall yesterday, I kept thinking they need a blanket and it’s too cold even though They’re ashes I can’t stop thinking about how cold and alone and dark it feels for me now that winter is coming is there much difference other than being at peace. I hate these thoughts, I never thought I’d have to live this way again.. you stole a part of me I needed. Can you move on and cut the ties now.. I’m done let it be done .. I’m so hopeful love this doc and her plan and I’m finally ready to try meds again after i almost gave up the first time .. that’s not me or who I ever was or want to be… I want to love life again and be excited for change and even uncertainty. I want to love and feel worthwhile and share the things we had so badly with someone who lives in the ways you pretended to. I am starting a new career, moving on and trying things to heal I never imagined I’d try… I need this to live again, you stole my life , you planned how hurt me as deeply as you could and you probably did it a long time before i ever realized. I knew you were damaged when we met, I didn’t fall in love with you to be your savior or out of pity, I thought you were so brave and genuine and all the things you said about growing together and being that love we never felt, I felt that way about you.. you swore you did while u set me up and commanded me like your faithful pup to move sit stay and come home I even picked for you .. I left so you wouldn’t have to hurt and you st me up!! You set it all up what was the rally huh the massages, the interns, the men in waiting? Are you pure evil I mean you tortured me for moths and I did feel horrible guilt ridden for all my mistakes and you never did anything we were supposed ti communicate work through all our things not use it all to hear worse.. I still don’t want that.. I just want to feel whole myself, I don’t remember what not frowning and feeling worried and sad feels like, the systematic way you did things,, was that your way to putting panic attacks in me ? Floor dropping out? Why?? Everyday we talked and weee together ever single day where you could have communicated like u promised but no you lied from day one. Your last few emails all the projecting is so obvious and gross now. You advocate mental health but you can’t heal you just it to abuse more.. break the cycle of abuse when you can, please let me try to rebrand my cycle or self hate and harm, you used me and lied and manipulated for years we both know it no matter what you or need to tell yourself and have repeated back to you.. the things you’ve done are cruel and wrong and not how you treat other people, dehumanizing and controlling people to use as scape goats for your pain, if any of your trauma stories were real. I wonder sometimes if a lot of that is one of the little girls that has a little piece of human empathy left in her trying to warn me and prepare me for all the nightmares to come.. I miss the way you feel and the way it felt to be with you, holding you and feeling right, I don’t remember what it feels like to be content.. we used to feel beyond content hikdjnf each other here so close how could that be fake?? How could you just do that for so long and just leave for weeks months and say all those things, still talk about my younger self and healing while you were lying giving me the silent treatment to a ridiculous degree… weekly emails maybe?? And then you were at a shelter?!? You lied about that too even though the police.. you left off oh all your texts and emails and only counted mine and brought the police while I texted I pics of me leaving after packing.. a restraining order.. for saving pics to an album I owned. But oh you couldn’t live with yourself if you ever ruined my life with legal crap… you evil user you chose me for it.. I know you don’t care but can’t some intellectual part of you that studied psychology understand how insanely severely abusive and manipulative that all is?? Can you plz just end it now, you can’t understand how hard it’s been for me and now that I’m facing another round of deaths in the family alone and holidays dreading that feeling of coming home alone I just want to find my strength again, I can be alone or try to love again if I want. I need to feel that way instead of trapped in the pain of you neighbor girl… first trios first this and that with a boyfriend… that’s all that mattered, pictures of memories you wanted.. you promised me all this love and care and understanding in every card saying I was the most caring giving understanding best empowering person for you and we’d do everything and all these trips and plans and I wanted it all!! I wanted it with you… your fiends Kirstin, she’s wack job her mean look faces aren’t funny or quirky and neither is she, ur not her sister and you barely talked except for trauma bs stories real or imagined. She might have a.good heart and your best interest somewhere but her insane victim crap or whatever her issues are clearly aren’t resolved. You pretend like everyone is your family your best fiends you lie and insert yourself into lives without any care for who gets hurt as long as you feel wanted, get attention or get cared for in some way… coddled.. we lived together all that time never one incident with police or any fights I even thought were bad until you lose it and locked yourself in the bedroom and screamed amen berated then if I said anything back even after the most hurtful things I could think of you’d later cry and apologize and. Make me feel bad for being so hurt you said such horrible hurtful things.. that’s what you do!!! Then project it all and lie to everyone until they believe it all.. well stop you didn’t need to use me in a person too, I matter too, my life matters I didn’t deserve to be your crash test disposable fake husband, we had eternal love Home is wherever I’m with you all the you and me decorations… I wanted a lifetime of exploring and you and me sharing those experiences all the ancient places and loving things and secrets we can find anywhere blah.. why is my whole life and mental health worth less than you even having to feel the guilt of looking me in the eye again… you were worse than my original abusers btw, at least they had an excuse. You know exactly what you are and how you’ll hurt and that you use those deep emotional things as weapons not to heal, just like all your love, you idiolize these golden people and live for attention I can’t imagine what really went on and don’t want to I know you have no shame or real emotions so it’s probably worse than I can guess anyway.. I never would have guessed any of it even if someone had told me that day before I came home to your note, no even after that even after you came back when your apartment was ready and you’d dangled me enough… oh btw u talked to my family more than once and said misleading things to win them over I say true things to your friend of what 20 years about your real mental health issue and that’s the last straw for the love of your life only true love family Home.. god you’re such a liar and then to say all the accusing hurtful things try that make me snap you’re a monster. Ratbastard rally coming to our place with your pizza pal… I could go in and on the forest preserve the interns u smoked with I never knew about, mechanics biker guys Ted who the f else does it Ben matter u emotionally cheated the whole time too and all the galleries of you pics blah.. you are deranged I know I said it all over and over and over here but it’s all true and it always will be. I do want you to heal, I want t in heal too, let me go, I’m finally getting the help I need and I need this so much, I don’t want now I don’t live, I try so hard to be proud of baby steps recovering but I can’t stand who I am now. The damage was so severe I was diagnosed with ptsd and put in medical leave. That was after I was already hospitalized twice once for breaking my ankles the day you were moving out while u were actually,, I had a sexier like panic attack sk bad my legs have out . It happened a few more times after your communications in the end. You truly are a heartless coward and a hypocrite katie. You are nothing like the perish I loved so dearly, she would be ashamed to share a name or dna with you, you are Amanda.. what you claim she was, you are your mom, the eye she hurt you and what you’re scared of becoming and already are.. you run from it all.. especially the worst of it u wil never face and I know it was sexual abuse inside the family. It explains you and your aversions and need to use me like a practice hubby to work the Kinks out and grow from. I feel so sad like my soul is being sucked one my feet when I think about it and I can’t breathe and it’s getting less but still every single day every time I think of you.. I don’t want to think of you or pain or being manipulated into and then accused and sued even after discard for more victim stories.. you wanted me take my own life I know you did, people who’ve read the KLM letters think you’re a clinical psychopath Katie it’s deranged for how our relationship was either you’re really too far gone in your victimhood to see it or you used me and lied for years ,. You got caught in so many weird manipulative lie and never changed your habits just your tactics,, I cheered you on as h lied and met people out of town it’s an sick and at the lake I know about that too.. why.. how.. hold my ah d my shoulder everywhere we went park
Use my soul the things I always wanted and ruin me everything I worked for for so long.. you never had to work for anything in your life , you can take years off for u, yay I had to struggle and fight tears back all day unsuccessfully at work on the road a few times.. I was finally getting healither and h tried to take an order of protection!! I was done with you for good and saw how stupid I’d beeen after your last email you went to far , Katie those problems you pretend to have and program’s, laws you abused support you stole,, you should know how disgusting that is !! You claim to want equity and care about things like minority rights and victims rights mental healthcare and understanding of it yadda yadda it’s such a part of you I knew no I never expected you’d leave one day with a note label me your abuser and use my rexctjin to justify ghosting for life while breadcrumbung and lying for years it makes my skin crawl We were looking at houses and all that had so many plans and things we were going to do and then you’re just fine and overnight I’m some killer maniac after you , it was all for you Katie and it’s sick you have to know that fix it be better and let me go too I want to be better and not do this anymore. I wish it was real j never felt that way you’re sick to use some of the things and do some of the things you did to me.. it was all wrong but some of it is sk dehumanizing it’s a crime in some countries. I see reminders of you everywhere and I do still miss the you j loved and all the little things we share and big things we could have done. I don’t want to love anyone else is what’s saddest even after all of it I’m still trauma bonded and I know it. Because I want it all tmm on not be real and to hold you and feel happy and safe and loved again.. enjoy you fing cat and life of lies.. plz let it go and be a human being you stole my hope and safety and made me feel raped and abused and face accepting I was abused by the person I chose as family. The only one ever and the all the things u did after to truer me I didn’t even think you could be away a week. 2 3 I mean people were like chill enjoy a week off my wife stayed by her moms. Few times people fight make up sex work thing shot talk .. I never imagined.. and I never imagined what believing and loving a broken person like you could do.. you intentionally turn rookie into people you can’t face who abused you by promising and acting out the love they and you always seem of but was taken by our lost. U betrayed me in everyday for what, looking back now Katie can’t you see the difference between a real abusive relationship and a couple that needs to talk more?? How could you say all those things, act like that and shut me out, you could have faced me if you we’re never ckmjng back not lied over and over until I cracked more and more .. it’s so twisted this is just a journal thing I won’t list I need to see the new psymed doc tomorrow and get pt setup.. I want tinker it go, I wanted to before please, I’m dealing with Sh much and I still hurt everyday from you it’s hard to live.. I don’t know what I’m doing to do for work now 2 people offered interesting opportunities but I don’t want to do anything anymore I can’t put groceries away without sobbing Katie all your food stuff all your silent torture and manipulating did cause a breakdown that’s been diagnosed unlike all your conditions. You should try to heal and stop passing on your pain but j know that’s not possible please just let me try to live again and move on from your trauma bonding me to you
She has all the traits of a covert/vulnerable narcissist but with her other mental health issues it’s hard to tell what she really is. It seems to all fit she chose me, used me to grow, used all the things she promised against me, attacked me at my weakest and called me crazy for reacting to her extreme abuse.. she tortured me and then even after I gave up ever hearing from her again triednto get an order of protection.. why do they live like that.. how could they? I truly loved her, was open with her up front from the start and she accused me of lying, of presenting a false self.. she made it out like I was her all along all the mental health issues she had were mine, all her insecurity.. I’ve never felt so betrayed so maliciously attacked on such deep personal ways. It’s been almost a year… my family has been sick we almost lost my mother as my ex left she never recovered. I started having panic attacks.. stuttering ridiculously.. I have ptsd, honestly It’s hard to even explain how bad she twisted my mind.. how desperate and sick I got… only a few people know I had to be hospitalized.. I’ll never understand how someone could live so fake.. fornyears life to someone and make them feel so loved. Tell them eveything they ever wanted to hear only to take it all back and act like you never matrered.. nothing has ever hurt so deeply for so long..
I believe you. I understand you. It really does feel like PTSD, I’ve felt it myself and wondered: am I experiencing PTSD? It’s all true. We may never fully understand why these people are the way they are. But we know that they abuse and victimize people who are close to them, and they externalize all their issues, so to them, it looks like someone else is always at fault. It’s called projection. All you can do, Katie, is try to make some sense of this experience, learn your lessons, and take comfort in knowing that you would never treat someone the way you were treated in that relationship.
Sincerely,
Lana
Thank you so much I needed to hear that
Hey.. I’m trying so hard to move on I know this probably isn’t the healthiest way.. thanks I get you actually understand 👍
Hey Lana,
Thanks for understanding, I wish I could make peace with it. I’ve just never felt so betrayed or hurt in my life. It was all so shocking and against everything I knew about this person I loved… it’s been like waking up in a nightmare designed by the person who knew exactly how to hurt me and cause as much emotional damage as possible. I feel so stupid now for being as broken as I am by a breakup, it’s hard to explain why and how but for an example I had a letter she wrote in my dresser, our place was all artsy pics of her she’d give as gifts or the most sincere heartfelt love letters. This one was all the promises she made to let me know she was in this with me and I’d always have a partner, now it’s like she went down a check list to break each one as painfully and confusing as possible.. she wouldn’t even talk outside of weekly emails Dodd 2 months until I couldn’t take it anymore .. but she was just waiting for me to break while using my reaction to the severe abuse as justification. It’s such a hard time of year now I already had depression that’s more season but all our anniversaries were around holiday’s.. I barely function anymore I used to almost love myself now I can barely leave the house or smile or do much of anything. I have ti make plans to do the simplest things like feed myself grr I want to feel anything but this again
It feels like you’re describing my life… it’s hard to imagine but even before you really knew them they scoped you out…. in criminal ways.. they have no boundaries.. remember that and really secure yourself please.. the things you find out after.. how deep it really goes is something you might not be prepared for… for a person, an intelligent person to put so much effort, so much pain to the of starving herself into protecting whatever it is eating her.. lying to therapists for years never progressing past the point of making eveyone smile and think you’re ok.OK.. keeping eveyone and eveything at a safe distance you control.. through and though becuse you need that to live I get it I really do….. I learned to live without that after my abuse becuse I can do that too I accidentally do that and I try so hard to be better… you can’t understand what you took from me and never will.. and I feel sorry for you
Oh god this sounds like my story. You could be their everything they could praise you for and say you’re the best thing that ever happened to them, work with them adjust to their needs because they have some issues you knew about going in and you do you and then they use you up and dispose of you and shut you out, call you crazy for reacting to their insane emotional abuse. Mine went to an abuse shelter for poor and bettered wormen!! She was having me take videos of her in bed and stitching cute patterns getting tucked in with stuffed animals before she left! She tried to get a restraining order on me after I was done trying to to get through to her she sent one last degrading email taking back everything, projecting all her issues everything we ever had was built in lies and she flipped it all on me, like she promised she never could when it was completely unwarranted, she never had to leave she wasn’t in any danger it was like a nightmare but then months later she admits she planned it all! She left saying it was an emergency she contacted my family who thought she lost it or we’d be fine in. A few days. I did too I never expected her to never come home let alone never talk or even look at me again.. not even a glance even in the joke court case she tried to bring against me for saved pictures to a shared album I owned! She kept promising she loved me and we’d work it out. It pulling away and torturing me week after week, I finally contacted her friend out of desperation and then the next day she’s telling me she will bring the police if I don’t vacate when she says exactly in a a few days, like I’m a dog she can abdondon and order order that’s how she treated me it’s so disgusting, I’m ashamed but I thought even then she’d come to her senses so noy only did I agree to leave I packed her things for her for 2 days straight and she still brought the police to set me up for her big victim reveal later. I can’t imagine there were many other rich girls with family and friends frown the street at the shelter who getting tucked in the night before… how can they do that? I would be so ashamed and feel sk bad for the victims… she ruined my mental health my self worth and took a piece of me I don’t feel like I could ever get back, I don’t have a trust fund or feee life I had to goto work crying and shaking and losing my mind because the person I loved and spent everyday with who promised in every way never to hurt me the eye she did did it all worse than I could have ever imagined.. the things I’ve found out about her since are shocking, I loved a lie a made up person who used me to grow, I fell in love with this emaciated quickly little victim girl because she seemed so genuine and real and we loved the same things and wanted the same we’re afraid to fall in love and couldn’t help it and then we compiemented each other so well… it hurts to my soul and with every breath when I think about how much she meant and how much our life together meant to me… I’ve never felt so manipulated and used and broken, even after groups and therapy and losing relatives and now my career because of it I still cry myself to sleep some nights and wake up crying,, there’s so much I want to do with my life now but i feel so crushed I can barely looks my head up or get out of bed most days, I’m hoping a new med will help take some of the edge off again, the last few months have been so hard the last year has been like w nightmare come true because I trusted an evil user with no empathy with the key to how to hurt me most and she promised things to even my inner child and twisted my mind so badly she turned me into her when we met,,, can’t eat or Funtiin like an adult, she thanked me for giving her the strength to leave me! She was cruel behind anything I’ve ever felt, she used my lpast she always knew about like a weapon to say she was afraid of one day become abusive but then went through all the motions like I tried to muster her! I’ve looked at countless stories over the last year and never do they so go no contact torture and breadcrumb and lie for months people like her use pseudo psychology to justify it but they are the covert narcs, the silent treatment, ghosting and using someone who loved you dearly me emotional pain to leave and grow from them intoning has ever damaged me more, I wish I could erase every memory Of her I thought I’d cherish forever, I used to get sad we hadn’t met sooner or worry about all the what ifs we never met, now all I wish is that I could go back and have my life back before her and narcissistic abuse and psychology words and bs took over my life, I was confident and finally thriving after a lifetime of depression and she attached herself to me and I never felt so close to another person l, she also left at my weakest while my mom was sick and everyone was still freaked about Covid we spent every single day together and she begged me to quit my job and stay home with her hah then later says she was planning her escape then too… Soo that was the plan leave me jobless and alone and desperate… turn me into her next excuse and victim story like everyone else in her life, I saw it happening from the start but I her imagined all this: I just want to give up but I know I still want have hopes and dreams and a lot of llife left if I can just feel ok enough yo try again. Please god help me feel normal just for w day I’d do anything not to carry this pain around anymore
This is like almost identical to what happens to me… I feel so sick and used when I think about how much I loved her…
It’s so hard to get over feeling used so deeply. I’m embarrassed to admit this but I still cry for hours some nights just thinking about if I’ll ever feel like me and whole again. I think they try to inflict the same pain they felt for whatever made them the way they are in people they get close to. But the whys don’t matter, what matters is you survived and you can heal. I won’t promise the pain will ever go away but I can promise easier.
I knew something was off or right on! I am married to a covert female narcissist I believe, and everything in this article fits her like a perfect fitting glove, the problem or the thing is , is that I love her with all my soul and heart and we have a child together, so here I am!!
That’s an interesting way to put it, I know what you mean tho. My ex said she was the victim of her narcissistic Father, Mother, sister, and best friend when we met. They were to blame for basically everything, all the problems in her life.
It makes me a little sick to know that she turned me into her next monster. That what I thought was fate, and the person who made any past hardship worth it because it all led to her. It felt like destiny, here was my perfect partner, living right next door all this time and it took us 5 years to realize we were soul mates. It’s still hard to say it was all love bombing, that she did her research living next door and appealed to my everything knowing I’d only be temporary like a stepping stone for her to use to grow, or a practice husband… it still hurts my soul to say it because even though it was all lies I’ve never felt so loved, or so much love for another person.. ever. She even labeled me her abuser in the end when our shared abuse was one of the things we bonded over and always promised to protect.
Then her issues were still sacred, and I became her insufferable burden when she thanked me in so many ways for all the strength I gave her before. It’s chilling, confusing, traumatizing, when you learn this is a pattern… and it was all by design. I think the big problem is we try so hard to understand it, blame ourselves, then even after we know the truth we can never really get it. People without npd can’t imagine plotting someone’s suffering and emotional torture, we wouldn’t want to, it just doesn’t compute so we get caught in the cycle, cognitive dissonance will tear your mind apart if you let it.
I’m still figuring out how to live and feel whole, or even normal again. I struggled with depression from an early age, worked hard to like myself and to succeed in spite of it. I know you’ll never read this but I want you to know, you took away a part of me that I earned and needed for your own selfish gain… you used me like a doll, you made me wish I never existed, you are a twisted person for getting me to open up things I’ve never said out loud only to use them all against me. If any of your past was true, you did to me what you always said traumatized you! You shouldn’t spend your life recreating your trauma with anyone who gets too close and loves you. Face it for once, the right way… you forced me to get help and face demons at the hardest time of my life while you were breaking every promise and torturing me all those weeks, months, when I still believed in you no matter how much it was killing me… I didn’t deserve this, no one does but I still don’t wish you harm or bad karma or any of that crap, I don’t want you to be empty and broken either, no one should hurt like this, not even you.. and adding more hate and hurt into the world doesn’t help you heal. I hope one day you can understand what that means… but I doubt you’d ever care or want to try… being a coward and living lies isn’t even easier… I know how you live, and you don’t deserve it either. I wish things were different, I wish the you I loved was real, but wishing never helped anyone, we have to better ourselves and play the hands we were dealt, but I will never be like you. I’d rather be lonely than try to be with someone again and pass the hurt you gave onto someone else. I could go on and on all night but putting it and her and everything out of my head is better. They are voids of people with malice where their empathy should be, I would have rather stayed ignorant to narcissism and people like this existing forever than have gone through all this… blah 😑 ok rant over I hope this helps someone I’m not sure it helps to bother saying it anymore.
Hey, don’t know if you’ll ever see this reply to you post, but your story mirrors my own and the way you wrote this really hit me. I’ve read a few people’s versions of things and all it did was make me feel more alone, being that until now I wasn’t sure if there was anyone else who would understand if I tried to explain it all.
I started to cry as soon as I finished reading and at the same time felt better, knowing that I wasn’t imagining it.
The hardest part of the aftermath is the absence of confidence in myself. I used to have a good balanced amount, but now, I overthink, question things too much, and I’m always afraid of being judged as if there’s something wrong with me.
I really needed something to remind me that I’m not crazy, in order to feel better.
Your comment did that. You helped me.
Thank-you!
Feminism is very much out of control nowadays, and with these very pathetic women around which is why many of us single guys can’t meet a decent normal woman anymore unfortunately.
Most women are narcissistic feminists nowadays more than ever.
I completely blame my ex for her actions, but after researching and healing from all this for over a year I have to agree to a point. There is a whole backlash of people, not just women being duped by this new wave of unhealthy pseudo psychology.
You don’t label your partner of years with a personality disorder and use it as an excuse to never speak to them or have to face them again… I swear online and YouTube therapists have twisted the most extreme circumstances into the norm now. I’ve seen some of the worst in private Facebook groups, they’re like a training camp for covert narcissists… and they really don’t like it when you try to explain the people profiting off it all are Women exploiting other women’s pain and giving them damaging mental health advice like it’s gospel. I’ve had long conversations with women in those groups that felt the same and were trying to help, real feminists… not the double standard witch hunt bs we see so often nowadays
Unfortunately, most, if not all, of women are functional narcissists. While women have always been more predisposed towards vanity, years of commercialized, female-centric media have taken women to astounding levels of hyper-entitlement. It’s just gross
Actually, according to research, narcissism is more common among men. It’s also more socially acceptable in men, in my opinion.
Now, I couldn’t help noticing that you posted your comment 36 times…It must be something you feel strongly about. Still…36?? That’s just obnoxious.
nah he’s correct and your attack on him due to website protocol error just proves his point.
Those women are real toxic to begin with.
You are completely bias in your supposed ‘research’. There is not a single male archetype on the planet that gains any form of social recognition unless he has also bent himself to the narrative of feminism and left leaning ideologies. Mainstream media refuses to promote or hire any male who does not participate in leftist male/self hating along with many other toxic ideologies. Your perspective that narcissism is more commonly accepted amoungst men belongs to the 1950s, not in the world we live today.
Lana,
While it’s true that the research seems to back the idea that men are more predisposed to NPD than women (7.7% vs 4.8% respectively), there is very likely an under-diagnosis of female narcissism at play in part because it may present differently in women and instead be classified as Histrionic Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder both of which women are over-represented in.
NPD often focuses on grandiosity as a defining characteristic. The assumption that grandiosity is more common in men might just be false. Hoertel et al. actually found that grandiosity was slightly higher in women in their study than men and that envy and lack of empathy were the primary differences between the sexes.
There may however be evolutionary biological and psychological reason why grandiosity may seem to be more prevalent in men in an overt sense. Like virtually all other mammals, the (human) female is the choosy sex, ruling over mating choice. As such, males compete for opportunities to mate with females. While some will balk at this, our biological hard-wiring hasn’t been overwritten by a few millenia of civilization, and Female Mate Choice still applies and selects for males that display certain characteristics, which likely drives male behaviours that are seen as more grandiose, envious, and hyper-masculine.
Again it’s very likely that female narcissism is simply under-diagnosed. Another contributing factor may be a tendency in society to see women as incapable of certain behaviours. Prior to the 1980s in was believed that female serial killers didn’t exist, that women simply weren’t capable. When women kill, society is quite often quick to assume there must of been some extenuating circumstance, because we still have this biased view that that’s really only something men do. These long standing stereotypes about benign females, their innocence and more delicate nature, also likely clouds things with regard to NPD diagnoses in females.
You pretty much never hear of a groomzilla, but stories of bridezillas abound.
Fact is, most women are very pathetic and brainless altogether which makes them real narcissists nowadays. Especially the ones that will curse at many of us single guys for no reason at all when we will just try to start a conversation with them by just saying good morning or hello. What is that all about anyway?
Most women are real narcissists these days unfortunately, and very dangerous as well.